Page 2 of 2

Re: Dr Bart van de Ven - Belgium

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:31 pm
by JustMe
Steffi wrote:If you're young enough and had a somewhat androgynous face anyway, then yes HRT might be enough.

But in simple terms - In pre-pictures I would straight away Read about half of those people as male, relatively pretty though some of them are, there is still something subtle in their face which says Male.

I'm inclined to disagree Steffi, you see subtle 'giveaways' to suggest that they need FFS to pass as female. How many cisfemales have those same subtle 'giveaways' that suggest that they are male? There are quite a few. I see them every day in the high street - those same women probably look at airbrushed images in magazines and wish they could be 'perfect' like those they see in the magazines. Aren't there groups who are trying to stop the magazines from airbrushing images and so portray women as they really are (warts and all)? Both my wife and I looked at those images and agreed that the majority did not need to undergo such major surgery to achieve the minimal results that were actually achieved. You may see 'subtle male giveaways' but to be honest - why should anybody from our community (or any other for that matter) be looking for the 'giveaways' in already pretty women?

K x.

Re: Dr Bart van de Ven - Belgium

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:02 am
by Steffi
I cannot see through others eyes, I can only see through the filter of my own experience, prejudice etc.
I know for certain that if I were to encounter those women socially, in over half the cases I would take one look and KNOW that was a transperson.
..... but then I'm probably hypersensitive to the situation. Perhaps Joe Public wouldn't notice - I have no way of knowing.
Yes, I've seen women sometimes with quite masculine faces, but I have very rarely been in any doubt - I think "That born-woman has a very masculine face"

- and that is perhaps the difference that I am seeing in those FFS pics - that beforehand I would instantly know, afterwards in most cases I would think most a born-woman, though slightly masculine and a few I would wonder if trans.

Are the differences minimal? Yes, because the actual differences between male and female faces are actually very's just that we as a species are acutely sensitive to them, so they APPEAR more marked. (I am not talking about the extremes there, really bulldog faced guys who look hyper-masculine)
It's not about whether the people are really pretty or not. A woman can be pretty ugly, yet still very clearly a born woman. In fact, the biggest nose that I have ever seen on any person was a young born woman I saw in the mall whilst in London to go to CX. After a couple of glimpses of her profile, I thought she MUST be a transwoman and finished up trailing her around the store, trying to actually get a good look at her face. It took a while, but as soon as I could see her properly I knew she was definitely a born-woman. She was confident and bubbly too and so still very attractive. But in terms of simpler measurement, that was a hell of a nose.

Meh....... I have no true idea what others see, I can only see what I see. :shrugs:

This discussion has taken place in the Dr Bart thread, but the principles raised aren't specific to him - I've felt the same as you looking at a gallery of others work, even Ousterhout.

Two points....
*It would be nice to be comparing exactly like-for-like - same hair, same lighting, no make-up etc but we're not.
* I think it is good and fair that the work shown covers a broad spectrum of types and degrees of success. It must be tempting to show only the cases where your work has been exceptionally successful ...... which might lead to unrealistic expectations and consequent disappointment.

Re: Dr Bart van de Ven - Belgium

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:27 pm
by JustMe
Hi Steffi,

Very well put and thanks for putting down your personal thoughts - I respect that.

I'm not so sure about trailing somebody in the store though - if she was trans, that could have potentially made her feel very uncomfortable - surely that's tantamount to stalking :gigglersx: .

K x.

Re: Dr Bart van de Ven - Belgium

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:31 pm
by Ice Maiden
A little game you can play is this.

Look at any woman at random and imagine they used to be 'male'.

You will then find issues to justify that.

Any woman on earth could say they used to be male to someone the moment they do. Things change, the person told suddenly, begins to question their judgement and how could they have not seen that!

This can actually agitate them slightly and they can then project onto the person suggesting that they have been 'fooled' and made to look silly.

But the are not nor they ever been male in any way shape or form. As more and more have early intervention and FFS this issue is going to become more common.

Whilst it is true those that pass can go about their lives and 'fool' those they meet. At the end of the day sooner or later they have got to tell the 'truth' and at that moment the secret is out. The favourite being a partner. Who they then break up with who then blabs about their past to get even... "YEAH WELL I LEFT HER COS SHE USED TO BE A F@CKING MAN!"

"Really! You'd could never tell." But now it makes no difference how well they pass as everyone now knows.

How do we know she used to be a boy? ... 80&bih=896
How do we know she used to be male ... 80&bih=896

Bottom line is all it does is help when meeting new people going shopping or riding the bus and not have abuse shouted.

But once people know it makes no difference.

As Jackie reported she was beaten up by 2 40 year-old men and called a freak.